Statement relating to epilepsy and our dogs
Some of our puppies have been doing exceptionally well within sports and it has placed us under the limelight for scrutiny. In itself this is not a problem however it has been brought to my attention that rumours within sporting circles are spreading like wildfire regarding our breeding lines in reference to epilepsy.
From what I have learnt the original remarks would be fairly accurate however like all Chinese whispers what is passed along is never the same, this has lead to alot of misinformation being put out there.
We are more than happy to answer any questions about our lines/breeding however we know that not everyone is comfortable asking about perceived 'difficult subjects'. With this is mind we have put together the following information so it is easily accessible for everyone to make their own decisions.
Depending on the number of generations you look at for any individual dog which when multiplied across a 5 generation pedigree goes into the 100s you will likely always find a link to epilepsy so I have made our links as clear as I can.
As Logic is the current link in many of our breeding plans I have based this information on a 5 generation history for a puppy sired by him as this covers the majority of our breeding.
For ease I have included the pedigree and circled any dogs with additional information available below.
Please note the majority of this information is from the BC Fitting database UK and EU so can be accessed by anyone.
The pedigree given below covers dogs born from 1994 onwards, so a span of 29 years.
I have included as much information where I have it on number of offspring, which when discussing a subject with no known cause or test available means you are basing decisions more on the statistical probability of a dog producing epileptic offspring so numbers of offspring becomes important.
From what I have learnt the original remarks would be fairly accurate however like all Chinese whispers what is passed along is never the same, this has lead to alot of misinformation being put out there.
We are more than happy to answer any questions about our lines/breeding however we know that not everyone is comfortable asking about perceived 'difficult subjects'. With this is mind we have put together the following information so it is easily accessible for everyone to make their own decisions.
Depending on the number of generations you look at for any individual dog which when multiplied across a 5 generation pedigree goes into the 100s you will likely always find a link to epilepsy so I have made our links as clear as I can.
As Logic is the current link in many of our breeding plans I have based this information on a 5 generation history for a puppy sired by him as this covers the majority of our breeding.
For ease I have included the pedigree and circled any dogs with additional information available below.
Please note the majority of this information is from the BC Fitting database UK and EU so can be accessed by anyone.
The pedigree given below covers dogs born from 1994 onwards, so a span of 29 years.
I have included as much information where I have it on number of offspring, which when discussing a subject with no known cause or test available means you are basing decisions more on the statistical probability of a dog producing epileptic offspring so numbers of offspring becomes important.
Leebeardream It's Logical (Logic)
(Owned and bred by us)
A little information on Logic:
Logic has sired over 200 puppies with over 20 different bitches (some repeat matings).
To my knowledge on the date of writing he has produced no puppies with epilepsy.
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*Update 3/12/2022
I have been informed of a puppy from a litter born in 2018 that began seizing this year (2022). Stillmoor Star Banner.
There were 7 puppies in the litter, no others effected.
The dam of the litter Stillmoor Spirit in the Sky has had another puppy in a litter born in 2020 who has now also had seizures - Stillmoor Through the Fire.
In 2021 a litter sibling to the dam began seizing, this dog is now also recorded on the fitting database. Stillmoor Midnight Strikes.
This dogs Grandsire is also listed twice on the fitting database. AM CH Rowesdale Creme Brulee.
There were also 2 other litters with Logic to the mother of the Stillmoor Spirit In the Sky - 2017 & 2019 with a total of 9 puppies, none affected.
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There are 5 of his offspring that I know of who have gone on to produce puppies and again to my knowledge none have produced epileptic offspring.
We are just at the point of seeing his Grand children (3 generations down from Logic) starting to produce puppies and again no issues have been reported.
I keep in touch with breeders and we have a group for puppy owners either bred by us or sired by the boys. We encourage people to post about their dogs, we are happy to help/answer questions and try to cultivate a relationship so should a problem ever arise we are told about it.
(Owned and bred by us)
A little information on Logic:
Logic has sired over 200 puppies with over 20 different bitches (some repeat matings).
To my knowledge on the date of writing he has produced no puppies with epilepsy.
_________________________________________________________________________
*Update 3/12/2022
I have been informed of a puppy from a litter born in 2018 that began seizing this year (2022). Stillmoor Star Banner.
There were 7 puppies in the litter, no others effected.
The dam of the litter Stillmoor Spirit in the Sky has had another puppy in a litter born in 2020 who has now also had seizures - Stillmoor Through the Fire.
In 2021 a litter sibling to the dam began seizing, this dog is now also recorded on the fitting database. Stillmoor Midnight Strikes.
This dogs Grandsire is also listed twice on the fitting database. AM CH Rowesdale Creme Brulee.
There were also 2 other litters with Logic to the mother of the Stillmoor Spirit In the Sky - 2017 & 2019 with a total of 9 puppies, none affected.
__________________________________________________________________________
There are 5 of his offspring that I know of who have gone on to produce puppies and again to my knowledge none have produced epileptic offspring.
We are just at the point of seeing his Grand children (3 generations down from Logic) starting to produce puppies and again no issues have been reported.
I keep in touch with breeders and we have a group for puppy owners either bred by us or sired by the boys. We encourage people to post about their dogs, we are happy to help/answer questions and try to cultivate a relationship so should a problem ever arise we are told about it.
1) Magreena Largeto at Meisterwerk (Sired at least 122 puppies and Grandchildren would be in the region of 300 puppies)
He is the Grandsire to a puppy from Rosmarinus Jaffa x Rosmarinus Ratafia who was epileptic.
Rosmarinus Jaffa is listed as the sire in at least 6 puppies pedigrees who suffer from epilepsy.
2) Kurgan Red Marauder of Stillmoor (Sired at least 66 puppies and Grandchildren would be in the region of 100 puppies)
He is the Grandsire to a puppy from Redcoat Boomer x Stillmoor Cinder Rose who was epileptic.
He is the Grandsire to a puppy from Rosmarinus Jaffa x Rosmarinus Ratafia who was epileptic.
Rosmarinus Jaffa is listed as the sire in at least 6 puppies pedigrees who suffer from epilepsy.
2) Kurgan Red Marauder of Stillmoor (Sired at least 66 puppies and Grandchildren would be in the region of 100 puppies)
He is the Grandsire to a puppy from Redcoat Boomer x Stillmoor Cinder Rose who was epileptic.
4)
Suga Gero at Leebeardream (Flyte)
(owned by us)
Flyte has had 3 litters of pups, each had a different sire.
11 pups between her first two litters which includes Logic. None of the other puppies have had epilepsy nor gone onto produce puppies with epilepsy (Approx 150 pups/grandpups)
Flytes last litter was to an imported dog and they produced 5 puppies.
Unfortunately two of these pups went on to develop epilepsy.
This was the sire's first and only litter.
After being contacted from a number of sources the following information has come to light.
- A full sibling to the stud dog from a previous litter had epilepsy (seizures began at 5 months old). He can now be found on the Netherlands Fitting Database. Bumbleebee (2965967).
- A half sibling to the stud dog has epilepsy
- Half siblings to the stud dog with OCD
- There are reports of Grand pups from the stud dogs father with epilepsy (niece/nephew of the stud dog) however I have not been able to verify for myself at the point of writing.
(all of the above are related via the sires father)
Neither ourselves nor the stud dog owners were aware of the above, this information came to light later on.
Suga Gero at Leebeardream (Flyte)
(owned by us)
Flyte has had 3 litters of pups, each had a different sire.
11 pups between her first two litters which includes Logic. None of the other puppies have had epilepsy nor gone onto produce puppies with epilepsy (Approx 150 pups/grandpups)
Flytes last litter was to an imported dog and they produced 5 puppies.
Unfortunately two of these pups went on to develop epilepsy.
This was the sire's first and only litter.
After being contacted from a number of sources the following information has come to light.
- A full sibling to the stud dog from a previous litter had epilepsy (seizures began at 5 months old). He can now be found on the Netherlands Fitting Database. Bumbleebee (2965967).
- A half sibling to the stud dog has epilepsy
- Half siblings to the stud dog with OCD
- There are reports of Grand pups from the stud dogs father with epilepsy (niece/nephew of the stud dog) however I have not been able to verify for myself at the point of writing.
(all of the above are related via the sires father)
Neither ourselves nor the stud dog owners were aware of the above, this information came to light later on.
3)
Meisterwerk Ghost at Leebeardream
(owned by us)
Snoopy passed away in 2018 and prior to this sired 197 puppies in his lifetime across 30 litters. There are approx 200 grand children and approx 100 great-grand children along with the next generation of great great grand children starting to be seen.
He was a successful dog and offered many qualities for sporting offspring which in those days were not as readily seen nor as accessible as in modern day sports dog breeding and as such was well used.
I am not in touch with all owners of grand children, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren however to my knowledge there are no puppies with issues other than those specifically mentioned within this page.
- One of the bitches Snoopy was put to was a Border Collie/Whippet, 3 puppies from this pairing went on to become epileptic - we owned one of them.
Meisterwerk Ghost at Leebeardream
(owned by us)
Snoopy passed away in 2018 and prior to this sired 197 puppies in his lifetime across 30 litters. There are approx 200 grand children and approx 100 great-grand children along with the next generation of great great grand children starting to be seen.
He was a successful dog and offered many qualities for sporting offspring which in those days were not as readily seen nor as accessible as in modern day sports dog breeding and as such was well used.
I am not in touch with all owners of grand children, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren however to my knowledge there are no puppies with issues other than those specifically mentioned within this page.
- One of the bitches Snoopy was put to was a Border Collie/Whippet, 3 puppies from this pairing went on to become epileptic - we owned one of them.
Leebeardream Zeva Le Bear
(owned and bred by us)
I am including here a little extra information that is probably not common knowledge.
Almost any breeder will at some stage experience a difficulty or make a mistake and we are no exception.
Almost 10 years ago things were difficult on a personal front following the death of family whom I was live in career for which meant no job, single with little family support and also resulted in almost being homeless in my early 20's, only being saved through the court process. I add this as a simple explanation of how things were at that time rather than any excuse.
At this particularly stressful time two things happened in relation to Zeva.
There was an accidental slip mating between her and Snoopy (this wasn't known until we discovered she was pregnant).
Late on in her pregnancy she almost died after a horrific collision with a greenhouse. Amongst her many injuries was brain swelling and trauma which resulted in seizures.
She went on to give birth to two pups. One of those pups had a short life succumbing to seizures. The other perfectly healthy.
The veterinary opinion at the time was that the injuries, subsequent medication and oxygen deprivation from the seizures suffered by Zeva had been the cause of the puppies seizures.
This was not hidden nor covered up and the pups were registered on the KC activity register.
Zeva went on to be seizure free for many years.
Zeva's situation is different and was a direct result of injury and should not be considered when discussing a genetic link.
Additional information
Tullulah (Zeva's Mum) had no other pups, grand pups, great grand pups or great great grand pups with issues.
(owned and bred by us)
I am including here a little extra information that is probably not common knowledge.
Almost any breeder will at some stage experience a difficulty or make a mistake and we are no exception.
Almost 10 years ago things were difficult on a personal front following the death of family whom I was live in career for which meant no job, single with little family support and also resulted in almost being homeless in my early 20's, only being saved through the court process. I add this as a simple explanation of how things were at that time rather than any excuse.
At this particularly stressful time two things happened in relation to Zeva.
There was an accidental slip mating between her and Snoopy (this wasn't known until we discovered she was pregnant).
Late on in her pregnancy she almost died after a horrific collision with a greenhouse. Amongst her many injuries was brain swelling and trauma which resulted in seizures.
She went on to give birth to two pups. One of those pups had a short life succumbing to seizures. The other perfectly healthy.
The veterinary opinion at the time was that the injuries, subsequent medication and oxygen deprivation from the seizures suffered by Zeva had been the cause of the puppies seizures.
This was not hidden nor covered up and the pups were registered on the KC activity register.
Zeva went on to be seizure free for many years.
Zeva's situation is different and was a direct result of injury and should not be considered when discussing a genetic link.
Additional information
Tullulah (Zeva's Mum) had no other pups, grand pups, great grand pups or great great grand pups with issues.
Personal Statement from us
We have owned two dogs with epilepsy and know more than most the heartache, life changes, stress, worry and financial burden this can bring. At no point would we want to intentionally breed a dog with this condition.
We have changed pairings and pulled dogs altogether from our breeding plans over the years where it was felt they were not suitable to bred from/paired together. Logic is our only BC out at stud and I do not believe that there is a risk of epilepsy from him, if we did he simply would not be at stud and I wouldn't be keeping pups back from him.
We are on our 5th generation down from Snoopy. Many of our dogs trace back through these lines.
Little food for thought - If we felt there was a risk we certainly wouldn't keep back dogs from these lines for ourselves where they are relied upon throughout the year to be at peak performance or have them placed solely within sporting homes where everyone knows each other.
We have owned two dogs with epilepsy and know more than most the heartache, life changes, stress, worry and financial burden this can bring. At no point would we want to intentionally breed a dog with this condition.
We have changed pairings and pulled dogs altogether from our breeding plans over the years where it was felt they were not suitable to bred from/paired together. Logic is our only BC out at stud and I do not believe that there is a risk of epilepsy from him, if we did he simply would not be at stud and I wouldn't be keeping pups back from him.
We are on our 5th generation down from Snoopy. Many of our dogs trace back through these lines.
Little food for thought - If we felt there was a risk we certainly wouldn't keep back dogs from these lines for ourselves where they are relied upon throughout the year to be at peak performance or have them placed solely within sporting homes where everyone knows each other.